Curse

Stealth Bomberman · Mar 20, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

All the talk of fire is the superior element in pve. i hate fire with a passion. how would earth suffice in a pve enviorment. i can see skills like unsteady ground and ward of stability to bring more to a party then straight dmg wich is weak neways.

my question is is it worth time to invest in earth for pve a all?

Ariena Najea · Mar 20, 2010, 07:50 PM // 19:50

You are spot on. When the foes are still Level 20 in NM... Fire works well. When you get to higher-end areas or HM, you deal just about no damage with Fire, so it's far more useful to stick to utility (Earth/Water/Air).

Churning Earth is a great choice for HM since all foes automatically meet the speed requirement for knockdown. Unsteady Ground is also nice, as is Eruption for dealing with physicals. It also doesn't hurt to take Maelstrom (even at 0 spec) to harass spellcasters, although you'll definitely want GoLE for that. If you are with mostly human players and no one else has a snare, Deep Freeze is also fun with GoLE.

Swahnee · Mar 20, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Fire has big numbers written on the skills' description, and evocative skill names, so many people like to think that it's the best damage line in the whole universe (i know a lot of people like these).

Sadly, it's elemental damage, so it's reduced by monsters' armor, this is why in HM going with armor-ignoring damage is a must if you want to do damage.

Desert Rose · Mar 20, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Expect for Searing Flames Fire Magic is rather weak in PvE, Earth Magic is often more useful.
Eruption and Unsteady Ground are quite strong in NM, and in HM Churning Earth powered up by Assassin's Promise is extremly strong. Using those AoE DoTs together with Ebon Battle Standard of Honor will greatly increase your damage because its bonus damage is triggered every damage tick from the AoE spells.

rkubik · Mar 20, 2010, 09:50 PM // 21:50

I would agree that as you go on to HM fire is pretty worthless. I think the element you choose also depends on what your group is. Lately on my ele I have gone water in HM with lots of hexes and snares as an AP caller. Then my heroes runs discordway. I have had no problems at all with that. If I go non-discord I like air for the armour penetration and more damage. Play around and see what you like the ele has a lot to offer outside of fire magic.

Lanier · Mar 20, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I would disagree that fire is terrible even in HM. Sure, everyone knows that elemental damage is reduced, but you can still do damage in HM with fire and its not like the damage is terrible, it just isnt as good as ar ignoring damage.

That said, your choice of fire or earth depends primarily on what you want to accomplish. If you want to run an AoE damage build, fire nukes generally do more damage than earth nukes. If you want to support, definitely go earth with wards, KDs and weakness. Adding in Maelstrom like Ariena mentioned is also not a bad idea for a support ele.

Desert Rose · Mar 20, 2010, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkubik

I would agree that as you go on to HM fire is pretty worthless. (...) I like air for the armour penetration and more damage.

Saying Fire Magic is worthless in HM but Air Magic is actually usefull is contradictory.
The base damage of Air Magic skills is decreased more due to high armor than the armor penetration adds up. Burning however is unaffected by armor. This make Fire Magic more powerful against high armored foes than Air Magic.

While I agree with Lanier that Fire Magic (read: Searing Flames) is far from useless in HM (DoA HM fullruns with 3 Searing Flames eles within ~45 minutes shows this), in general Earth Magic is superior; the little more damage you'll deal with Fire Magic cannot compare to constanly blinded and knock downed foes what Earth Magic provides.

Mouse at Large · Mar 21, 2010, 02:27 AM // 02:27

The conventional wisdom is that Fire is fine in NM, fire is crap in HM.

It's not quite so simple though, - if you can run a twin heats bar with MoR with MB in HM you will probably do fine. The obsession with single target DPS v AoE damage with burning has never quite been bottomed out

That having been said, the conventional wisdom is that either Earth support or pseudo-monk (ER) will be better in HM.

Dzjudz · Mar 21, 2010, 02:56 AM // 02:56

I like to run a 5x searing flames team in HM nightfall (me + 3 ele heroes + cynn), beats the crap out of discord any day. Bit less useful in other areas (no SF hench) but still very good.

mage767 · Mar 21, 2010, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Fire is not the optimal element for an ele in HM, but it's not crap either. You just don't see the big numbers due to reasons already mentioned. However, in mass, SF/GG meteor shower eles can still do some significant damage and degen through burning.

Alternatively, you can go: 1) Defensive earth, 2) Offensive earth. If you go 1), consider close-range fights to your advantage, aka "turtle defense". If you go 2), combine earth with other elemental skills for synergy.

Arrogant Bastard · Mar 21, 2010, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Fire damage is very powerful with the right team. Multiple copies of Searing Flames and/or Savannah Heat can spike down properly balled mobs.

Even if you aren't using a SC team, its not hard to pull a mob, snare, and AoE.

The only two earth skills I use often are Churning Earth and Eruption. Unfortunately, the long recharge means AP is often the best elite choice. Unsteady Ground is really the only viable Earth elite for general PvE, but I find AP to be superior in most cases.

If you want to do damage, Earth is the wrong line, but it can provide a lot of support in an AP bar:
AP
YMLAD
EVAS
FH
Churning Earth
Eruption
GoLE
Optional (I like Maelstorm, you can also switch out one of the PvE skills for something like Mindbender to spam these skills faster)

I use this build the most when I'm not using ER.

WhiteAsIce · Mar 21, 2010, 08:57 AM // 08:57

I see a lot of praise about Unsteady Ground, but not often do I see Sandstorm. What makes UG so much better than Sandstorm?

shander · Mar 21, 2010, 09:43 AM // 09:43

The only real problem that I have with Searing Flames is that, by itself, it's not that great. It's crazy energy expensive to spam, and you HAVE to spam it to get anything out of it. In order to see it full potential, you need multiple ele's spamming it. You can do a more than decent amount of damage by using just one earth ele, and still have energy in reserve.

Desert Rose · Mar 21, 2010, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

I see a lot of praise about Unsteady Ground, but not often do I see Sandstorm. What makes UG so much better than Sandstorm?

Unsteady Ground can be used every ~22 seconds while Sandstorm can only be used every ~32 seconds, and UG costs less energy.
Also, AI runs out of AoE DoTs so SS will most likely deal far less than its potential damage, while Mobs will most likely be forced to stay inside the range of UG due to the knock down.
In the end, both will deal about the same amount of damage, but UG also knock downs the foes which greatly helps your defensive.

Simeon · Mar 21, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00

most elementalist aren't big damage in hardmode.... thats why having a nec with weaken armor is godly in hardmode, makes things die sooo much faster and bigger numbers go across your screen.

waeland · Mar 21, 2010, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

i hate fire with a passion. how would earth suffice in a pve enviorment. ... my question is is it worth time to invest in earth for pve a all?

Most viable HM ele builds use earth. But proper question is - is it worth to use ele for HM PvE at all? Short summary - ele is usefull for great utility and some damage and is capable of solo ferming but it is not top HM class (as is for example necro or sin).

Winry Sagara · Mar 21, 2010, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

I see a lot of praise about Unsteady Ground, but not often do I see Sandstorm. What makes UG so much better than Sandstorm?

In addiction to previous, absolutely correct answer, I'll add another thing: UG causes KD. Try to aggro some melee mobs and cast: UG + Eruption. Blind condition + KD to everyone (because they all attacks).

khezial tahr · Mar 21, 2010, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by waeland

is it worth to use ele for HM PvE at all?

Seriously? Why would you bother posting this crap in the ele forum? Or at all? Why can't you possibly believe that eles can be FUN to play? That they bring some useful elements to PUGs or other groups? And this is other than an ER protter (which I leave to heroes).

FoxBat · Mar 21, 2010, 01:23 PM // 13:23

We still have a monk forum despite ether renewal, so I think we can keep the ele forum "ele" despite ether renewal too. I mean hell, we still have a mesmer forum.

khezial tahr · Mar 21, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

That wasn't my point. Eles still have a place in the game, HM and all.